The UFO Iconoclast(s)

Tuesday, December 03, 2013

Telepathy and UFOs (at Roswell?)


Christopher Allan [CDA] takes Anthony Bragalia to task in a comment for the Bragalia link in the previous posting here.

CDA objects to the assertion that General Twining allegedly said he communicated with a Roswell alien survivor telepathically.

And CDA also protests that scientists or science eschews the idea of telepathy. Here’s CDA’s comment:

AJB:

You say, based on 2nd or 3rd hand testimony, that the live Roswell alien communicated with General Twining by telepathy.

Tell me please: 

1. Have you any reason for supposing that Twining had telepathic powers? Is this documented anywhere? 

2. Have you any reason for supposing the ET also had telepathic powers?

No such thing as intelligent life outside the earth is known to science; no such thing as telepathy is accepted by science either. Yet you go one step further and tell us that not only do ETs exist and have visited our planet but that they can also communicate with us by telepathy! 

While I [RR] am no fan of telepathy or other vagaries of ESP, I need to note that CDA is not well-versed or versed at all about what science thinks of telepathy.

For instance, there are a number of extant scientific considerations of ESP elements.

And I find one suggestion by Ted Bastins, a one-time Research Fellow of King’s College, Cambridge [in CDA’s backyard], in the chapter “A Clash of Paradigms in Physics” at Page 119 ff. in The Encyclopedia of Ignorance; Everything you ever wanted to know about the unknown [Edited by Ronald Duncan and Miranda Weston-Smith, Pergamon Press, Oxford/NY, 1977] to be applicable to the “discussion” here:

Bastin, defending telekinesis, or psychokinesis, as he calls it, writes, “that I have myself had extensive and variegated first-hand experience of experimentation with two well-known subjects [Uri Geller and Suzanne Padfield] who are able to influence physical objects in a paranormal way (that is to say, to execise psychokinesis.” [Page 124-125]

“Psychokinetic effects show an effect of ‘thought forms’” which he goes on to integrate into quantum theory, or hopes to. [Page 125]

He states that “I do not believe myself that the fact that one has to come to terms with ‘thought forms’ … means that one has to abandon rational inquiry.” [Page 125]

“I described earlier how violent a change the sequential paradigm [of classic physics] would demand” of common sense. [Page 125]

He elaborates on the how a “new paradigm frees us from the preconceptions of spatial and temporal” and how one might consider such paranormal activities, such as psychokinesis (and telepathy) even though contain the attribute that “they are separated in space and in time.” [Page 126]

He concludes, “familiarity may make us see a reasonable coherence where in fact there are great areas of ignorance while denying any coherence to unfamiliar ideas which may be no worse in their incoherence.” [Page 126]

(That conclusion should be read slowly by CDA, Lance Moody, and the marginalized and disappearant French skeptic, Gilles Fernandez,)

So, while telepathy is anathema to my friend CDA, and not an adherent topic I enjoy, one should be disinclined to dismiss it out of hand and make errant generalizations that science eschews the matter altogether.

If Mr. Bragalia’s Nathan Twining says he telepathically interacted with a Roswell-crashed alien, one can, as CDA does, dismiss the alien crash part but not the telepathic part. That would be imbecilic.

RR 

37 Comments:

  • WOW, RR!!!!

    ...seriously? you really have decided that you need to come to AJB's defense using a reasoned and thought-out rationale that, if presented to AJB, would only give the same result as trying to teach Calculus to a cat????

    ...you should allow AJB to become at least somewhat comfortable with the view from his own petard, n'est–ce pas?

    By Blogger Kurt Peters, at Tuesday, December 03, 2013  

  • KP:

    I'm just correcting the errant view that CDA presented, cavalierly more than calculatingly I think.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Tuesday, December 03, 2013  

  • Telepathy is different from psychokinesis as a paranormal activity. Neither is accepted by the science establishment, however persuasive their proponents are.

    Of course I do not deny that at some distant future date both MAY come to be accepted by science, or at least partially accepted and subject to certain conditions, etc.

    My point was to illustrate the stupidity of AJB's narrative and its worthlessness.

    If you take two quite separate topics, both unrecognised by science at present, and combine them into another scenario (i.e. aliens communicating telepathically with homo sapiens) you make yourself look doubly silly. This is what AJB has done. He has rendered his already deeply flawed ideas of an ET visit to earth with aliens mentally communicating with humans!

    Isn't this exactly what Adamski did some 60 years ago? Is AJB therefore a believer in Adamski, and if not, why not?

    By Blogger cda, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • Christopher:

    That Mr. Bragalia reports what Twining said (about his telepathic experience) doesn't mean that Mr. Bragalia believes in telepathy.

    Bragalia is merely the messenger, the reporter.

    I know you fellows want to skewer him but don't misconstrue what he's writing.

    He is one thing; what he's telling you he found is another.

    I'm not an advocate for Roswell, as an ET event.

    That is for others to determine.

    But I'm not galled or upset by those who believe that Roswell was the site of a flying disk accident.

    It is, as David Rudiak, continually proffers, a possibility -- for him a probability -- but I accept his views as possible not probable.

    Nick Redfern, in his book about the Pentagon and UFOs, documents that place as taking telepathy seriously.

    And some quantum scientists now do also, if you're reading about the latest happenings and thought in science.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • Also, you skeptical quidnuncs...

    You might find this interesting:

    http://www.nbcnews.com/science/spooky-physics-phenomenon-may-link-universes-wormholes-2D11690659

    It confirms -- confirms! -- that odd things are rampant in the Universe and in reality; telepathy among them.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • Instellar travel requires an interdimensional dynamic.

    The UFOs and their pilots bridge the physical and the paraphysical...

    AJB

    By Blogger Anthony Bragalia, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • I would add that Twining is not alone in his claim of telepathic contact w/ the Roswell alien. Others claimed this including Frankie Rowe's Roswell fireman father, Dan Dwyer, who spoke of mentally sensing the creature. JC Smith, the last living Roswell fireman from 1947, told me and Kevin Randle that Dan was indeed out at the crash site...

    AJB

    By Blogger Anthony Bragalia, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • It is atypical to throw a red herring into the mix when it comes to the Roswell swamp. A sort of a relativity principle applied to logic. CDA's skepticism is natural whereas AJB's mixing of ingredients uses this relativity of logic to cast spells upon himself has no rejoinder that is workable because it's a miasma. You cannot refute what constitutes a dream. In this sense, CDA was shoveling sand into the tide.
    Telepathy does occur but mixing human telepathy with Roswell as well as cross species telepathy, as well as the fact that if this alleged creature had such a capability, do you think it only "spoke" to Twining out of deference to what would likely be only a difference in costume? Not one iota of alleged communication ( which would have begun with anyone upon discovery of this creature has surfaced which would have involved at minimum several individuals. No death bed confession no whispered tales among comrades. Nothing..nada.

    The moment this occurred all conversation would have been transcribed and Twining would not have been the only recipient, it's fair to say. Of course then there is a matter of language, semiotics, even cybernetic arrangements in organizing a thought prior to expressing it which would take years of study unless we are speaking of "magic" Go to Siberia and begin blathering to the natives and see where it goes..
    This is called jumping the shark.
    Throwing out known parameters to make the story work is also atypical. CDA's skepticism again is called for but AJB's threading of beads is simply quaint. Characterizing CDA's comment as imbecilic,as juxtaposed against the mishmash it commented upon, seems overly dramatic.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • Bruce...

    To deny telepathy, out of hand, is imbecilic.

    Quantum physicists, see in entanglement, the possibility of it (telepathy) being a part of nature.

    That you fellows are ill-read or in a state of denial about such things in today's science milieu is dreadful and sad, for me, as I'm casting pearls before swine.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • A theory is based on known behaviors that are extrapolated into possibilities.This is not the case here. Treat it as a homicide without a body. There is no known circumstantial evidence, just a series of allegations.When the going gets tough, one supposition is plied atop another in this case.Now we have extra-dimensional travel, telepathy, what else can we bring in? This is based on the premise it's all composed of hard evidence of which there is none. Period. Again, hard evidence based on the claim of it's existence not the providence. The two in this case are mixed together to make a one of the weakest cases possible.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • Its imbecilic to mix human to human telepathy with cross species telepathy.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • You're hanging your hat on an aside, Bruce.

    The telepathic comment is the red-herring.

    It's either a matter of lying, or a mind-set derived from other sources and added to the Roswell story.

    That Mr. Bragalia includes it in his piece is necessary.

    Bragalia doesn't decide which part of the story should be excluded; that has been the problem with UFO researchers past (and present too).

    As for mixing human telepathy with alien telepathy-- both are iffy, nutty even.

    But not outside the realm of imagination or possibility.

    You guys, commenting here, are just out to nail Bragalia and have resorted to insane barbs that belie your usual sensible ripostes.

    I'm not inclined to accept the Twining story, but I do allow that it is (now) part of the Roswell mythos, and one has to deal with it.

    That you, Bruce, and a few others, would censor such silliness is disturbing.

    In the field of UFOs, or ufology, all things are grist.

    The topic itself calls for such foolishness.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • You can't have it both ways. Theres no evidence. Period.Its not a matter of AJB, its the lack of evidence and the lack of evidence causes both you and AJB to resort to everything under the kitchen sink that is not hard evidence. This is a nuts and bolts case, and there is no material evidence.You cannot mix this with relativity and theoretics.
    You want to solve it, stick to the evidence.Not parsing or loop to loop verbiage.You have gotten way out of context in defense of your friend, which is both admirable and self defeating.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • You're wrong Bruce...

    The matter of telepathy is one thing.

    The Twining "confession" is another.

    I'm dealing with telepathy here.

    You would mingle the two.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • You mixed them in your post as a misfired attempt to deflect the heat off Tony. Again as far as Twining is concerned if you are falling back to Tony's original post, again, its not circumstantial evidence, its a allegation..two different things.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • Enough Bruce!

    You miss the point of this exercise; it's about telepathy, not Twining's confessional aside.

    I defend Mr. Bragalia's right to post whatever he wishes to.

    I don't see him hanging his thesis on the telepathy angle of the Twining story.

    I'm tackling the telepathy part as CDA discounts telepathy (and almost everything else in the world) and I think he (CDA) is being obtuse.

    You just want to nail AJB. I don't know why nor do I care.

    But come clean and tell us that's what your motive is.

    Don't do your usual wiggle with words to pretend you're dealing us an intellectual blow.

    I'm not buying it.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • You are not telepathic. It is AJB's case and theory not AJB. To throw everything out the window and say it's a vested vendetta is soporifically silly.You are off the topic again. This is not a contest. Its a weighing of evidence and there is none. This entire premise is based upon a hard craft crashing in the desert.Period. You need to clam yourself. There are no winners, no losers when it comes to fairy dust.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • Dammit Bruce....have you had your coffee yet this morning?

    My piece here is about telepathy.

    It was spurred by AJB's posting and CDA's rejoinder, but the essence of my item is telepathy.

    You muddy the waters by bringing in the AJB/Twining affair, which is not the gist of my piece, here.

    That's what irks.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • Telepathy between human beings was placed in the context of inter-species telepathy which is errant. Its as simple as that. You put it there, not I.
    Personally I would have kept the two more clearly separated.Keep Tony's post out of it. This is where that train went South and this is what I pointed out much to your chagrin.
    BTW..I thought it was sort of a case of the provoker being provoked..LOL.

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • Sweet Jebus, I never thought this would happen, but I'm actually agreeing with Mr. Bragalia... well, sort of.

    The Twining story is bunk, but not because of the telepathy angle. It's bunk because there is no corroboration of a third hand account. Only a true believer would be unable to see that (cue Mr. Bragalia).

    Add it to the Roswell myth? Sure - the more crazy stories the better at this point.

    But the question of telepathy as a separate matter is a different story, as Rich has pointed out. I'm not saying that I absolutely believe telepathy is possible, but it can't be ruled out (indeed, I think some form of "telepathy" is likely - we don't know as much as we think we know about how the mind works, which is to say that we know very, very little). If there was an advanced intelligence interacting with us, I would expect it to be done telepathically, probably using imagery as opposed to language as we understand it in order to communicate at least basic themes and ideas (I actually think that may be what seeing UFOs and ghosts etc. is all about), or to inspire. It makes a lot more sense to me than physical B-movie nuts-and-bolts spacecraft from Zeta Reticuli with aliens that look and behave a lot like us. But I digress.

    What I don't find surprising in the least is that if a person were to make up a UFO story (as I have no doubt is the case with the Twining "revelation") they would include telepathy in there some where, as it is a recurring theme in UFO literature stretching back to the Contactees. It is something that would instantly resonate with believers like Mr. Bragalia because it is part of the overarching mythos already. No need to reinvent the wheel when telling a lie.

    PK

    By Blogger Paul Kimball, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • ...and I thought that I was argumentative...

    ...anyway, upon a little reflection, I have arrived at the conclusion that since it seems we all (except AJB, of course) perceive what we think of as "reality" COMPLETELY within our pate-encased grey matter, perhaps General Twining only THOUGHT he was in whatever the heck 'telepathic communication' is?

    By Blogger Kurt Peters, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • Actually it is easy to answer one of AJB's claims:

    A while back AJB insisted there were only two possibilities, namely that either Gen Twining was a liar or his son was a liar. AJB would not accept that there were shades of grey in between.

    So here's the rub:

    Gen Twining was indeed a liar, period.

    Why? Because in his (in)famous memorandum of Sept 23, 1947 he wrote:

    "Due consideration must be given the following: The lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits which would undeniably prove the existence of these objects".

    This was written two & a half months after Roswell. Therefore we may certainly assume Twining knew all about it if Tony's latest story is true.

    Therefore either Twining was lying in what he told his son decades later or he was lying in his Sept 23, 1947 memo.

    In either case, Twining WAS a liar, at some point.

    Which version is the truth and which a lie? Have you any idea, Tony, or would you prefer not to engage in semantics of this kind?

    By Blogger cda, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • PS. I forgot, but General Twining was on MJ-12, wasn't he? Does that affect the picture, Tony?

    Perhaps he was on that committee because they needed at least one member with telepathic powers.

    By Blogger cda, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • I particularly enjoyed the comments that inferred it was all rubbish ( Roswell) and then said lets include more rubbish, why not?
    Theres already plenty of it there. After all, we have to recognize all rubbish as soon as it hits the ground or is established in the genre of generic rubbish.Nothing is true so all things are possible. LOL...

    By Blogger Bruce Duensing, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • CDA-

    The Twining Memo was only classified "Secret." Anything on Roswell would of course be at least Top Secret. Not including such restricted information in a memo is hardly a "lie."

    AJB

    By Blogger Anthony Bragalia, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • Rich:

    First of all, kudos for taking on this most controversial element of the Twining case, head on; it shows a certain amount of intellectual courage all by itself.

    Watching this debate play out shows me that the skeptical position was formed based on what amounts to a layman’s understanding of the state of science in 1947 and does not seem to have evolved in any significant way since.

    The central points of that position are: there’s no one out there and, if there was some one out there, they couldn’t get here from there. To those two points we could add the third: If they could get here from there, they couldn’t use telepathy to communicate.

    Let me recommend 3 updates on these skeptical dogmas:

    1. From a University of California press release a month ago: “….Based on a statistical analysis of all the Kepler observations, astronomers at UC Berkeley and University of Hawaii, Manoa now estimate that one in five stars like the sun have planets about the size of Earth and a surface temperature conducive to life. Given that about 20 percent of stars are sun-like, the researchers say, that amounts to several tens of billions of potentially habitable, Earth-size planets in the Milky Way Galaxy….” (The Kepler Observatory is a NASA space-based telescope which I am happy to have played a minor role in, as a NASA aerospace engineer.)

    2. The abstract from a paper titled “ADVANCED SPACE PROPULSION BASED ON VACUUM (SPACETIME METRIC)ENGINEERING” by Hal Puthoff, appearing in the Journal of the British Interplanetary Society (JBIS), Vol 63, pp 82-89, 2010:

    “A theme that has come to the fore in advanced planning for long-range space exploration is the concept that empty space itself (the quantum vacuum, or spacetime metric) might be engineered so as to provide energy/thrust for future space vehicles. Although far-reaching, such a proposal is solidly grounded in modern physical theory, and therefore the possibility that matter/vacuum interactions might be engineered for space-flight applications is not a priori ruled out. As examples, the current development of theoretical physics addresses such topics as warp drives, traversable wormholes and time machines that provide for such vacuum engineering possibilities. We provide here from a broad perspective the physics and correlates/consequences of the engineering of the spacetime metric.”

    3. From Dean Radin’s most recent (2013) book, “SUPERNORMAL”, in which he discusses the current statistical basis supporting the reality of telepathy via meta-analyses and Bayesian analyses:

    “…Psychologist Patrizio Tressoldi examined the ganzfeld (i.e., telepathy) studies and several other classes of psi experiments using Bayesian techniques….Tressoldi published his results in 2011 in Frontiers in Psychology. …Tressoldi found that in a collection of 108 ganzfeld studies, involving a total of 3.650 participants, a conservative Bayesian analysis resulted in odds against chance of 12 billion to 1. The “Bayes factor”, or ratio between the odds in favor of the telepathy hypothesis versus the no-telepathy hypotheses, was 18.8 million to 1 in favor of telepathy. As a rule of thumb, a Bayes factor greater than 100 to 1 is considered “decisive”. (p. 197) and,

    “Telepathy tests developed over many decades have evolved into experiments that are as close to perfect as anyone has been able to devise so far. The results indicate that telepathy is as close to “proven” as contemporary science can establish.” (p. 199)

    By Blogger Larry, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • Thanks, Larry...

    I hope that visitors here read your comment slowly and with an open-mind.

    It provides substantive insight to the matters at hand.

    We all have opinions but those that are backed up by academic-like materials help clear the air.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • "2. The abstract from a paper titled “ADVANCED SPACE PROPULSION BASED ON VACUUM (SPACETIME METRIC)ENGINEERING” by Hal Puthoff, appearing in the Journal of the British Interplanetary Society (JBIS), Vol 63, pp 82-89, 2010:"

    ...should one actually do some research, and perhaps peruse 'Great Mambo Chicken And The Transhuman Condition' by Ed Regis, one might find that the Hal Puthoff entity is somewhat problematic, sir.....

    By Blogger Kurt Peters, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • ...please forgive my over-posting RR, but I just actually read your original blogpost: "If Mr. Bragalia’s Nathan Twining says he telepathically interacted with a Roswell-crashed alien, one can, as CDA does, dismiss the alien crash part but not the telepathic part. That would be imbecilic."

    As I understand the AJB commentary, NO ONE has any proof of Nathan Twining saying anything like this. There is only a claim from some Brit female humanoid that someone claiming to be Twining's son claimed to her that he was told yadda, yadda, yadda...
    Have I got this correct?

    By Blogger Kurt Peters, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • So as not to go far afield, once more...

    That Twining allegedly said he received telepathic input from an extraterrestrial creature found in a flying disk crash near Roswell in 1947 is not the purview of my piece here (above).

    That scenario is for the Roswell ET/skeptic crowd, who can comment underneath our link to Mr. Bragalia's article which precedes this one.

    For this posted item, the matter concerns the reality or not of telepathy -- just that, nothing more.

    The Twining aside and CDA's rejoinder to it was the jumping off point for my posted item, above these comments.

    Is there such a thing as telepathy or not?

    CDA say no. I tend to agree with him, but leave the door open as, contrary to CDA's riposte, science has dealt with the issue (as Larry cites for us) and it is not a topical anathema for quantum physicists (because of the entanglement of quantum particles).

    Continuing to bring in the Twining assertion here shows me what kinds of minds I'm dealing with -- and I don't like what I'm reading.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • RR-

    I am sorry if I misinterpreted your intent here. Since you originally brought up Twining :

    "If Mr. Bragalia’s Nathan Twining says he telepathically interacted with a Roswell-crashed alien, one can, as CDA does, dismiss the alien crash part but not the telepathic part. That would be imbecilic."

    ..I assume that you were looking for comment on this.

    By Blogger Kurt Peters, at Wednesday, December 04, 2013  

  • Telepathy? Never seen it manifest it self either in the psychiatric arena (other than a delusional quality) or in my culture...Louisiana-Cajun...and I've had relatives claim to have "remarkable" attributes...all which manifested into total BS.

    With the above said, I'm not discounting it totally, but I tend to be a doubting Thomas until given proof that I can personally accept.

    Now, since this all originated with Tony's post and his self-rendering opinion, I have to ask if Tony Bragalia actually believes that Twining communicated telepathically with ET?



    By Blogger Tim Hebert, at Thursday, December 05, 2013  

  • No Kurt, you do not have this correct. "Some Brit woman" is hardly the only corroboration that Nathan Jr said these things about his father. I mention Suzy Ward and Ted Oliphant also claimed what Jo Walters has claimed. And since the piece was published I have learned of two others who maintain that they heard Nathan Jr say these same things.

    AJB

    Re Telepathy:

    Let us not ever forget the inextricable connection between Inner and Outer Space. I have written previously about my conversations with both the late Dr Leary and Dr Mack about this.

    Remember too that I have confirmed that Dr Frederick Wang of the Navy Research Lab who "co-invented" Nitinol conducted "mental powers" and PK tests on the alloy with psychics.

    AJB

    By Blogger Anthony Bragalia, at Thursday, December 05, 2013  

  • Tim-

    Just like we can "transfer" emotion to another, we can, by extension, transfer thought. Telepathy is ultimate empathy working in both directions.

    Reading the Journal of Parapsychology published by the Rhine Research Center may enlighten.

    AJB

    By Blogger Anthony Bragalia, at Thursday, December 05, 2013  

  • Tony,

    I tend to disagree as we do not "transfer" emotions, but one can sense the emotional state of another based on behavior patterns...there are a plethora of psychiatric/psychology journals that may "enlighten" you on this matter.

    BTW, this tend to be visual/auditory cues that is picked up, not mind to mind transfers.

    I had asked a question in my comment (Rich did not post) if you personally believed that Twining had telepathic communications with aliens. I'm still interested in your thoughts on that matter.

    By Blogger Tim Hebert, at Thursday, December 05, 2013  

  • Tim:

    Your question for Tony about Twining should have been asked at the linked item about his posting, not here.

    RR

    By Blogger RRRGroup, at Thursday, December 05, 2013  

  • Rich,

    My apologies and fair enough!

    By Blogger Tim Hebert, at Thursday, December 05, 2013  

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